You Be The Judge

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cmshowstopper
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You Be The Judge

Post by cmshowstopper »

Anyone here watch Chicago Justice? Its ok. Definitely the weakest of all the Chicago shows. The point of this thread isnt specifically about the show, but more about a specific case that just happened that I totally sided with the accused and against the city of Chicago and the D.A. Here are the facts and I would like to hear your viewpoints and what you think, if any, punishment was deserved. I am not asking for the LEGAL answer, but more of a right/wrong answer. Be warned, almost all of it is VERY grey and not black and white.

Facts:

You have a small businessman who is going into business. His first couple of years, he does alright for himself. He provides a valuable product, his business flourishes and the man works hard. His business begins to grow and in doing so, he attracts the government. Uncle Sam has come in and finds some VERY minor issues. Certain drainage pipes are a 1/2" too small, technicalities on how something is labeled that is not the "legal" definition and thus is charged with false labeling and 1 or 2 minor issues. Instead of giving said businessman an opportunity to fix it, they instead levy a $20,000 a day fine until these issues are fixed.

The small businessman looks into solving the issues and finds it will cost MILLIONS to make these adjustments and he simply cannot afford it. He tries to stay into business, but eventually these fines add up into the millions and now the small businessman is buried in debt and unable to continue his business.

The small businessman is desperate to not lose everything. He, illegally, commits arson and burns his business down in order to cash in on insurance policy. This way he can start from scratch with the insurance money. His plan is to pay off his govt. debt and rebuild. But sadly it is discovered that when the man burned his building down, one of his employees had snuck in the night before and decided to sleep inside the building for the night, unbeknownst to the small businessman. This man dies.

The small businessman is charged with arson and murder. However, the jury finds the man not guilty on both accounts. In reality, the small businessman knew he was guilty of the arson that would accidentally kill his employee. He wanted to take no chances with a guilty verdict that would send him to jail for probably the rest of his life. An opportunity presents itself and a dirty police officer is willing to take money from the small businessman and use it to bribe a juror to ensure a not guilty verdict. The dirty cop would take percentage for himself for doing the physical deed. The juror, who is financial peril accepts the bribe and thus we get the not guilty verdict in a case that wasnt 100% proven in court anyway.

Over the years, the dirty cop would extort more and more money from the small businessman, as this businessman would rebuild his business. Eventually, the small businessman grows tired of this dirty cop continually showing up as business grew looking for more. So the small businessman confronts the dirty cop and in the end, kills the cop.

The small businessman is now being arrested for murder and is on trial again. We all the legal viewpoint. We understand that the dirty cop was indeed murdered. But was it just? This is a dirty cop, not Mother Theresa or even Joe Blow. Did the small businessman truly commit a crime or do the world a favor? Does the small businessman really deserve to have his life destroyed due to an accident caused by someone who was NOT supposed to be there...legally trespassing, I would guess?

I think what we have here is a good man who had to do some questionable things in order to protect himself, his family and his business. He was an honest businessman that got caught in the govt's web of red tape. Instead of doing right by the small businessman, the govt. screws him. The man does not know what to do or how he can save his business. So he screws over an insurance company, that lets face it is screwing thousands of people everyday in unpaid claims...so really they certainly deserve to wear the other shoe for once. He did not intend for this employee to die. And now he is facing even more hardship while being put on trial. So he does whatever it takes in order to make sure he is not found guilty. And finally a dirty cop continues to extort more and more money from this small businessman over the years and finally gets what he deserves when the small businessman decides to do something about it. Because in reality, you cant fight city hall. And trying to prove this cop is dirty without getting killed first or having his family's life endangered is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Is our small businessman a bad guy or someone caught in an area of grey? He eventually accepts a plea deal for 35 years in prison. 35 years...is that justice? 35 years for killing a dirty cop? 35 years for screwing an insurance company that screws thousands every day? 35 years for the accidental death of someone who was not supposed to be inside our small businessman's building?
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ICW
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by ICW »

I think the businessman is a bigger piece of shit than the dirty cop (or just as big). He gets fined by the government and is in risk of losing his business, which absolutely sucks, but committing insurance fraud that accidentally kills your employee AND trying to cover it up? Zero sympathy.

The cop sounds like scum but so is the businessman, IMO.
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oscargamble
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Re: You Be The Judge

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Most people would concede our government, the insurance industry, justice system, etc are far from perfect. But to use that as a rationale to say that therefore it's acceptable to just buck the system and do whatever you can as long as it benefits yourself, sure ain't the way to make things better. Committing insurance fraud is still not OK, and surely isn't going to help in making insurance rates go down. Ditto bribing a juror - that's not going to help shore up our justice system... While I can see how someone might feel or even side with the schmo, the ends do not justify the means in this case, IMO...
He should've just closed shop immediately, filed for bankruptcy (still not the ideal answer, but at least doesn't involve fraud and deaths), then started over...
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Greg2600
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by Greg2600 »

I think the story/show left some critical things out. First of all, the government doesn't just fine you 20G per day on the spot. There's procedure and rules, and the business owner probably ignored a citation or two. Second of all, arson MUST be vigorously prosecuted because firemen lives are put in danger. Third, this "business owner" could have just walked away, and ignored any debts/bills. The President has proven this as a viable business path, after all.

As for the "dirty cop" piece, that's kind of nonsensical, and far from what I'd consider reality.
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cmshowstopper
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by cmshowstopper »

oscargamble wrote: March 30th, 2017, 8:21 am Most people would concede our government, the insurance industry, justice system, etc are far from perfect. But to use that as a rationale to say that therefore it's acceptable to just buck the system and do whatever you can as long as it benefits yourself, sure ain't the way to make things better. Committing insurance fraud is still not OK, and surely isn't going to help in making insurance rates go down. Ditto bribing a juror - that's not going to help shore up our justice system... While I can see how someone might feel or even side with the schmo, the ends do not justify the means in this case, IMO...
He should've just closed shop immediately, filed for bankruptcy (still not the ideal answer, but at least doesn't involve fraud and deaths), then started over...
I absolutely believe that. Our govt. is corrupt. Insurance companies are frauds. The justice system is a joke. Obviously, when talking morality...the definition can vary for people. For me, I dont have any issue with this man doing everything he can to save his business. All he wanted was to have his business and provide a product to the area he lives, a product that his customer's loved. I'm sure if he was some huge business, these issues could have gone away with a bribe. But he is not and could not afford to do it.

Insurance rates arent going down bc they dont have to. Insurance runs wild on people left and right. Due to the structure of our justice system, legal or illegal is irrelevant. If they can drag it out long enough, they can force the opposition to run out of money or just run out of time, taking advantage of the ignorance of the insured. I am the ignorant insured that gotten taken advantage of.

I have ZERO faith in our justice system. Again speaking from personal experience that cost me a lot of money, a lot of time and personally burned me by costing my job opportunities based on some wild, outlandish story.

A small business person is not just gonna be able to close up shop, file BK and start right back over. That BK will crush his credit profile for sometime. He would be forced to file a chapt 11 and be forced to repay debts from assets. This could go on for years before it would be discharged and THEN he could start over. But then how would be able to afford to do so?
Greg2600 wrote: March 30th, 2017, 10:05 am I think the story/show left some critical things out. First of all, the government doesn't just fine you 20G per day on the spot. There's procedure and rules, and the business owner probably ignored a citation or two. Second of all, arson MUST be vigorously prosecuted because firemen lives are put in danger. Third, this "business owner" could have just walked away, and ignored any debts/bills. The President has proven this as a viable business path, after all.

As for the "dirty cop" piece, that's kind of nonsensical, and far from what I'd consider reality.
Its possible something is missing. Its possible that its just a work of fiction. Then again, it sounds plausible in the general scope. I understand that legally the arson would need prosecuted. Unfortunately, it was nothing more than a theory. Im not sure he needed to bribe a juror, as the facts of the case werent strong enough to convict and the cops fucked up part of the investigation. The arson investigator testified that his opinion was "it was possible it could have been arson." His conclusion was not certain. He said it was possible due to finding an incinerate, BUT it was also possible it was in fact an electrical short. We know, as the viewer, it was arson. But looking at just the facts and the testimony...I felt that prosecution was swimming up a creek. He bribed the juror for the fact that he wanted to ensure he would not be convicted.
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by djknightrida »

Mods can this be put in the TV thread where it belongs? :perplexed:
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cmshowstopper
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by cmshowstopper »

djknightrida wrote: March 30th, 2017, 7:55 pm Mods can this be put in the TV thread where it belongs? :perplexed:
Not a discussion about television. This is a topic about right and wrong.
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AsianDave
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by AsianDave »

I don't profess to kno much about the law or the workings of the justice system, but I gotta ask...
But if the "small businessman" is on trial for arson, insurance fraud and involuntary manslaughter, and it was found out that one of the jury is being bribed, or the cop is in on extortion/blackmail deal, wldnt they have called this a mistrial and tossed it out of court? The "small businessman" wud walk free in that they can't retry/or charge him with same crime...it's double jeopardy! But by same token, he can be brought up on civil suits by the family of the deceased employee.
Some things to take from this:
1. We are NOT above the law
2. We are NOT judge, jury and executioner
3. Crime does NOT pay
4. Desperate ppl will make irrational and reckless decisions
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cmshowstopper
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Re: You Be The Judge

Post by cmshowstopper »

AsianDave wrote: March 31st, 2017, 8:54 am I don't profess to kno much about the law or the workings of the justice system, but I gotta ask...
But if the "small businessman" is on trial for arson, insurance fraud and involuntary manslaughter, and it was found out that one of the jury is being bribed, or the cop is in on extortion/blackmail deal, wldnt they have called this a mistrial and tossed it out of court? The "small businessman" wud walk free in that they can't retry/or charge him with same crime...it's double jeopardy! But by same token, he can be brought up on civil suits by the family of the deceased employee.
Some things to take from this:
1. We are NOT above the law
2. We are NOT judge, jury and executioner
3. Crime does NOT pay
4. Desperate ppl will make irrational and reckless decisions
First, I was looking for people's opinion on morality concerning this versus legal. Legal is cut and dry, pretty much.

Second, double jeopardy has a loop hole. Since he was originally acquitted on the arson/murder charge with a tainted jury, it doesnt cause for a mistrial. The DA argued that no trial really took place and thus, double jeopardy does not exist. I am sure this must be EXTREMELY hard to get enforced, but for the show purpose the current judge moved quickly on it.

The wife of the guy who died in the barn did not want a civil suit. She said she would not get closure or justice from that guilty verdict.
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